Stuck & Broke

Last month when I wanted to leave oversea where I work for nearly 10 years now, I tried to transfer some money to my Malaysia bank account but to no avail.

I didn't think the matter was serious that I could sort out with the bank when I come back. As such, I gave specific instruction to my oversea bank to do the transfer a week after I depart.

When I went to the bank, I was shocked that the bank has closed my account upon instruction under JIM. Luckily, there's not much balance in it. I started to ponder what could have happened.

I don't have any local outstanding loan, cc debt, etc. My last car and house were sold many years ago. As I was not working here, our new house and car were bought under my wife's name. As far as I remember, I had even settled all the TM, Astro and utility bills of my old house.

Suddenly, it struck me that the last payment of my cc was done by someone else. This was about ten years ago. At that time I intended to use my expenses claim and oversea initial allowance to fully paid up the credit card. As my claims couldn't be processed in time before I left, I told the account dept to make payment to a colleague friend instead. She would in turn settle the cc for me. I even 'upah' her the balance of a few hundred dollars.

I immediately called her about the matter. To my dismay, she told me the account dept refused to release the money to her that she didn't make any payment to the bank. I called the account dept but they said they were unable to check as it happened too long ago.

I have read some threads here to find out more about bankruptcy. I find that the people here are very helpful in giving advice and sharing their experience. I hope I can receive some feedback on my questions:

1) I will be broke in a matter of about two months time, stuck here if I am unable to travel oversea to get my money. I read an old thread someone managed to go oversea via Singapore. Is this still true now?

2) My new contract oversea only starts in the third quarter of this year. I am thinking of asking my wife to obtain a personal loan to pay the cc bank and cover our expenses until I am able to travel oversea again. Is it worth it?

3) I intend to approach the cc bank first to get as much discount for lump sum payment before reporting to JIM.  I want to wait until the bank realise that I don't have any assets or cash for them to recover. How long does it take for them to realise this? Or they just don't bother? At what percentage of discount should I start to propose with? If they refuse to give good discount should I just leave and tell them that I would pay only the minimum monthly installment to JIM?

4) After meeting the bank I guess I would have to report to JIM (with/without the offer letter from the bank.) Is there any penalty impose by JIM for late reporting? I didn't receive any letter from neither JIM nor the bank. They must have posted them to my old address.

5) If I agree with the discount given by the bank, am I allowed to pay JIM on the spot and skip the hassle of filling up all the forms such as the SOA?

6) If I don't agree with the discount and opt to make monthly payment to JIM, is there any way they could find out how much I make oversea? I don't intend to give them the correct amount as I wish to pay only the minimum installment.

I really appreciate any feedback and suggestion. Thank you and I wish you all a Happy New Year.

Just simple Q's..

1/Have u chk if u hv been ban from travelling overseas?
2/U hv still have notable monies at overseas ac, eg.. over 40K?
3/Working overseas.. Just reply whether A)Spore or B)others?
4/Age?
5/How many years ago you have sold your last house? Proper S&P to others or "transferred".

Opinions..
1/You have definitely have bankruptcy issues not only with JIM, the other JIM, and the Tax dept if u decide to work overseas again.
2/Trying to leave the country with yr family(plus children?) still in the country using "backways/loopholes" is not really advisable unless u leave with the whole family and do not intend to come back till old age.
3/A bankrupt has no more rights to deal directly with creditors, only thru JIM. Read properly again the postings of the past 30 days paying attn to @shah and @anuar and @King (who reported to JIM and chabut again). @King is still driving and kicking around happily..
4/The value of a bankrupt(for insurance claims/awards) MAY be based on the Income & Expenditure (I&E) submited to JIM every 6 months. So, how much do you want to "value" yourself?
5/Trying to under declare income without substantiated proof/documents can get you very very very big big problems with JIM if caught. Read the case of the ex wife who bought the polis and immigration Pengarah to the ex husband house of today posting. ( No reference to yr issue ). It could be yr ememies or even ex colleagues.
6/There is no JIM guidelines for minimum payment to JIM to Judgement Creditors. It all depends on the I&E submited and adjudged. Nobody has been jailed for not able to pay debts or did not make payments to JIM as "promised". But to try to "cheat" JIM, MAY have dire consequences.

Balance of opinions after your reply to above Q's..

Good day to you Jeff. I really appreciate your fast reply.

1) Yes. Thank you for the immigration link you provided in the older thread.
2) Yes, all my savings are there.
3) B
4) 43
5) 6 years ago to a friend. I didn't remember exactly what I signed but all done by a lawyer engaged by my friend.

1) I don't quite understand who is "the other JIM."
 
I am not so worried about tax as the country of my income source has Double Taxation Agreement with Malaysia. If the tax I paid in that country is more than the tax payable in Malaysia (which is always the case) then I don't have to pay tax in Malaysia. If it's the other way around, then I would have to pay Hasil the difference in tax payable. The DTA is indeed a good treaty to avoid double taxation of the same income by two countries.

The last time I went to Hasil was about three years ago. I just submitted my few years of NOA with a cover letter, just like what I did for the previous submission. They didn't even ask me to fill up any form. My record showed that I didn't owe Hasil anything.

2) I want to leave the country just for a short period of time to bring back my money and face JIM after that.

3) I based my plan on the following Q@A between Barney and notalawyer as follows:

Barney: A very good friend of mine was recently declared a bankrupt.....This was due to a House loan he and his ex wife took (both now separated). Case already declared but no letter from JIM yet to him.....He's thinking of going
to the JIM office and work out a settlement.

Q1: Is this a good idea ?
A1: It's a good idea if he has a lot of spare money. Otherwise it is wasting time.

Q3: Which would be better ? Work out settlement with Bank or JIM ? The bank told him to submit a proposal which he did on how he planned to pay off the loans.
A3: The bank, unless he has a lot of creditors.

Another note by notalawyer in the same thread:
"Firstly JIM is too lazy to get offer letters from the banks for you. So you have to do it yourself."

4)&5) Yes you are absolutely right. I was dumb to think I could under declare my income. JIM could just ask for my tax NOA. Expenseswise, I am sure as a bankrupt I cannot show that I am paying for my house and car right? Then I don't think my I&E would give me much support for small amount installment. Now I guess I would have to work on getting as much discount from the bank for lump sum settlement.

Jeff, this forum is alive and kicking is because of good and caring people like you. Most of other forums I visited would link this forum when it comes to bankruptcy issue. This forum won't become so popular without the contribution of good samaritans like you.

I believe people with bankruptcy problem wouldn't need to look elsewhere for advice after they found this forum. I myself could have been making the most terrible mistake of my life by not being truthful to JIM shouldn't I find this forum and post here.

Take very good care of yourself Jeff especially in managing your health.

I read some suggestions here to keep cash in safe deposit box. Is it safe from creditors?

especially in managing your health

Alamak.. u have been profiling and stalking me?? Thks for the Heads Up..

For the past few months I have had read here and there on other notable forums, financial advisors, and loans advisors. To my dismay, quite a number posting has got very inaccurate info, the latest was one posted that he/she got multiple bank debts and almost all banks have file for judgement in court. The answer was.. If one bank has made him/her bankrupt, the next bank will proceed and making the person bankrupt again within the year!! The poster has mention that not able even to settle even the debt of even one bank. It does gives the impression there is "double" or even triple bankruptcies. The answer should be if one was adjudged a bankrupt, one can report to JIM and seek help to settle the other suit cases by the filing of POD.

My sifu has advice me to be very careful of what i post. What i post may help or make things worse if misinterpreted. By now you would know who he is..

Notalawyer is a very season and notable forumer here. His posting has logic and foresight. I have to digest what was Barney posting, can you direct me to that post? I have to study the whole post, I would not want to make unwarranted unintentional disparagement to his opinions. From what you post, notalawyer is 100% sound.

Your case.. for the moment..

1/Unlikely to be able to travel overseas until you have reported in to JIM. Do let me think on how to get JIM to allow you to travel overseas for the purpose of retreiving your monies before involving the bank. The bank will sure say no to nego for lower amounts. You have been caught flat-footed in the bkcy. That was the bank intention to "catch" you in the first place. Unless you are involved in politics..

2/You have left a standing instruction to pay to your own account, can you reconstruct the S.O. to pay into your wife or children account? By video-conferencing? By getting endorsements from the Embassy, and if that overseas bank has a one outlet here in Malaysia too.?? That may tide you over the next few months.

3/I have analysed that if one debtor has bought a property before and have sold it within the last few years the banks have inclinations towards bankrupt the debtor assuming the money has been "stashed" somewhere. They MAY not let go. Maybe after a long period of time after 10,15,20 years of not finding the bankrupt, and if the bankrupt "surrenders" and nego for lump sum, they WILL quickly agree. Chances for notable discounts for new bankrupts is quite low.

4/The other JIM.. Jabatan Immgration Malaysia.

5/Keeping notable amounts of cash in FD boxes can never be 100% safe. I recall that a court order can be obtained even to "open" the safe deposit box suspected to belong under proxy by a bankrupt. Of course must have "hantus" in order to know your private dealings. What about fire inside the bank.. byebye to your cash..

Lunch time.. catch up with you later..

Jeff

@KAM

I have just read Barney posting. Conclusion:-
1/Different from yr case
2/No updates and no conclusion
3/Barney did not follow notalawyer opinions/advices fully
4/They are some facts omited by Barney and not verified by the bankrupt. For eg. the bankrupt did not get a CTOS reading if the bank has got a Judgement Debtor for being a guarantor. There is no mention of filing of "liabilities" as advised by notalawyer. If that bank has a judgement debt awarded, they would have another 12 years to filed bkcy. Bank Buat bodoh and did not receive any letters since there is no update on new address required by JPN. Once pay lumpsum and get discharged then after a few years kena bankrupted again by the other bank. Notalawyer has specifically warn of this situation.

So, deal with your case based on your details would be less confusing.

There are 2 ways you can deal with your issue.
Personal opinion..(For you and your case ONLY)
1/Report in to JIM. You can prove the delay in reporting by producing your passport.
2/Determine the actual bkcy amount, date made bankrupt.
3/Get CTOS reading on whether they are any more "silap".
4/U need not file SOA, Assets and Liabilities, I&E on the spot, make appointment 1 month later to present your filings. I think @King did that, ask him.. Most legal impt req is to report in first. This will clear your first hurdle and plan properly your next course of action. Leave out communications with the bank that bankrupt you first. Act later.

Senario 1.
If the bcky amt is too big and your wife PL cannot cover, get permission from JIM to work overseas with your offer letter by the paying of deposits and getting a guarantor to vouch for you(as advised by another forumer). You can also prove you are not going to abscound by submiting marriage cert plus child birth certs and school attendances(if any). By paying in instalments may ease the case flow and not need get your wife in loans repayments. If you can get letter from JIM fast, go there for a short holiday and bring back your monies, not cash, transfer to your wife ac from there. Maybe get the company to give letter stating that you have to do some urgent work there first for a couple of weeks.

By reporting in to JIM, you have a "value".. based on your offer letter. Any mishaps(touch wood) esp air travel, your next of kin gets compensation. Of course, some amounts will be deduct from the "estate" to pay creditors.

Senario 2
Wife get PL or pinjam from relatives to settle full amount to get discharged. BUT, you still have to report in to JIM. Get your OA to reduce the interest rate to lower rate, say, 6%.. Then get OA advice/permission on how to nego with bank to get discharged. By nego with the bank direct is unlawful and i doubt they would agree on notable huge discounts for new bankrupts. But can still try with permission from OA/JIM. Nothing venture nothing gain, but follow proper procedures and you are "covered". JIM is your GODFATHER now, do not try to bypass HIM. He is protecting your interests. Maybe you can make your offer thru JIM.. They would just "panjangkan and sokong" your offer.

Jeff

Alamak.. u have been profiling and stalking me??

Haha... I am very free now, on "holiday" in-between contracts you know. I have all the time in the world to read whatever I want, nothing much to do. Furthermore, already cancel most programs with family...to conserve money. Kids are quite upset though

1) Need to ask wife to start applying for personal loan now, see how much she qualifies. 

2) In fact already called the oversea bank. There's no two way, for SO amendment/fresh application of bank transfer need to present my passport and biometric authentification is a must.

3) Just for info, I never got to see the house sale proceeds. The lawyer paid directly to the developer's lawyer of my new house.

Thank you for giving me the insight together with the course of actions and scenarios for me to move on. I will keep them inside my pocket handbook for easy reference.

Have you exercised this morning? If not, please find some time to do it in the late afternoon. Exercise do your body a lot of wonder.

Thks for your concerns on my health. I have to exercise every day to burn off the fat. I work in the mornings and exercise (walking/stroll)in late evenings, if not, i may not last over 36mths. The diabetics drugs have been max out and showing signs of irreversible side effects. Excericse and strict food diet is the only way to prolong lifespan.

Am glad I could be of some help. You have been very helpful too by posting detailed circumstances, failing which wrong/inaccurate sharing of info can have reverse consequences. Some ppl do think I am a busybody asking even "personal questions", but it would be crucial in making appropriate remedies. For eg whether u have notable savings, if you are working in Spore, I have read somewhere that barring the amount is justify enough vs costs, it MAY be possible to garnish a personal savings account in Spore banks. But lawyer fees and court fees plus deposits can take out a bigger chunk.

No need to hide cash.. Transfer overseas monies to 1 ac, and then retransfer multiple times to your wife ac and all children acs to "window dress" the entire transcations. "Loans" from relatives to upkeep the family going and/or to settle your bankruptcy, even as loan from your overseas employer.!!

Wish you the Best of Luck for a smooth transition.

Rdgs
Jeff

Has anybody heard about this PPPPM?

http://ppppmalaysia.weebly.com/

http://ppppmalaysia.wix.com/ppppm

Facebook

They claim they are NGO that main objective is to provide assistance and services to people who face problems with the banks and financial institutions. How true can that be?

This is the service that I am interested in:

- BANKRAP/ MUFLIS
• Jangan risau masih ada lagi peluang untuk anda melepasi masalah tersebut, kami sedia membantu anda:
a) Pengurangan baki hutang bank
b) Bayaran awal untuk bebas muflis

If after reporting in to JIM and I am not able to get good discount from the cc bank, I think I will go and see these guys whoever they are. Nothing to loose I guess.

Here are some excerpts from their website:

"...Rekod pencapaian terbaik kad kredit tuntutan sebanyak RM140,000, kes ditutup dengan bayaran minimum RM7,000 (dengan 6 kali bayaran bulanan)..."

"...Di sini, bermulalah tugas dan khidmat kami dengan menghulurkan tangan untuk membantu orang ramai yang tertindas dan ditindas oleh pihak-pihak kapitalis yang menekan pengguna tanpa belas kasihan. Kami cuba untuk membantu orang ramai yang menghadapi masalah dengan pihak Bank atau institusi kewangan, kami pinjamkan telinga kami, kami hulurkan bahu kami sebagai tempat mengadu, kami dengar setiap rintihan, kami cuba bantu sedaya upaya kami. Rayuan orang ramai kami akan majukan kepada pihak atasan Bank, kami akan bantu dengan menjadi orang tengah di antara pengguna, peminjam dan pemiutang dengan pihak Bank, kami titipkan surat rayuan dengan memberi alasan dan sebab beserta dengan bukti kukuh dan kami majukan ke pihak atasan. Sekiranya tidak berkesan kami akan majukan kepada pihak berwajib, seperti jabatan-jabatan kerajaan berkaitan dan juga menteri-menteri berkenaan.

Kami telah berjumpa dengan menteri yang berkenaan dan pihak menteri menyokong penuh usaha kami kerana mereka juga sedar ramai orang yang tersepit dalam permasalahan ini disebabkan kesempitan hidup dan tekanan hidup disebabkan masalah-masalah yang menimpa yang tidak dapat dielakkan.

Segala masalah yang diajukan dan dibawa kepada kami tidak akan kami tolak dan kami akan cuba bantu dan selesaikan, tidak kira apa jua permasalahan sama ada masalah kad kredit, pinjaman kenderaan, pinjaman peribadi, pinjaman perumahan dan hartanah, pinjaman pelajaran, masalah bankrapsi, masalah rumah dan hartanah hendak dilelong oleh pihak Bank, semuanya akan kami bantu dengan sebaik mungkin..."

Is there any other "NGO" like this?

Whoever has any knowledge or opinions of these people please share it here.